Time for a system revamp?

[Bish]

A Modest Proposal

Contrary to popular belief, I am not new to HD. I have been lurking about this environment on and off for 3 years now. I missed a lot of things in between, but I am very familiar with how the system works. Upon my return to this place, however, I got the advantage of functioning as a newbie. I must say that sometimes it is difficult to drive myself to participate in things outside of PMs. Here are some suggestions that I would love to make.

1) Complete and spread the TVtropes page. That site receives God knows how much traffic per day. The best part is that most of them have some sort of passing familiarity with both writing and/or Bleach. The way to get people to come here from there is to get them to see our page in multiple places. We need to make sure that the page for HD gets finished and referenced in every trope page that we can. If we build it, tropers will come. I am definitely willing to help take on this challenge, but I would most definitely appreciate some help.

2) Consolidate all of the stat sheets and rp rules into a single place. The biggest complaint that I have received from all five people that I have tried to recruit is that the forums are difficult to navigate. I noticed how odd it is that I had to provide three different links to explain to Dysney alone exactly how the shinigami worked. Only one of them was really available from the section explicitly named HD Rules. Our architecture is not inherently difficult, but it is more than frustrating/intimidating for new folk to simply figure out what they can and can't do.

3) Begin some form of social media drive. I feel as though if we can get a legitimate Facebook Group going, we could attract a few more people to the site. Someone, of course, would need to admin that and be willing to essentially dive into the strange reaches of those shared pictures and comment on eeeeeeverything.

In terms of minor changes here and there, I really do question the wisdom of only receiving credit for 1000 words. I would definitely like to see either a potential quality bonus or a reduction in the word cap to 500 or 750. In any case, that will be all from me.

 

[swaswj]

Wayne, again, I don't want to hear "we should" sort of comments, because they really mean "somebody else should." If you're willing to look into Reddit and talk about what we'd need to succeed there, I'm all for that, but don't just toss ideas and hope somebody else wants to do the work.

Contrary to popular belief, I am not new to HD. I have been lurking about this environment on and off for 3 years now. I missed a lot of things in between, but I am very familiar with how the system works. Upon my return to this place, however, I got the advantage of functioning as a newbie. I must say that sometimes it is difficult to drive myself to participate in things outside of PMs. Here are some suggestions that I would love to make.

1) Complete and spread the TVtropes page. That site receives God knows how much traffic per day. The best part is that most of them have some sort of passing familiarity with both writing and/or Bleach. The way to get people to come here from there is to get them to see our page in multiple places. We need to make sure that the page for HD gets finished and referenced in every trope page that we can. If we build it, tropers will come. I am definitely willing to help take on this challenge, but I would most definitely appreciate some help.

2) Consolidate all of the stat sheets and rp rules into a single place. The biggest complaint that I have received from all five people that I have tried to recruit is that the forums are difficult to navigate. I noticed how odd it is that I had to provide three different links to explain to Dysney alone exactly how the shinigami worked. Only one of them was really available from the section explicitly named HD Rules. Our architecture is not inherently difficult, but it is more than frustrating/intimidating for new folk to simply figure out what they can and can't do.

3) Begin some form of social media drive. I feel as though if we can get a legitimate Facebook Group going, we could attract a few more people to the site. Someone, of course, would need to admin that and be willing to essentially dive into the strange reaches of those shared pictures and comment on eeeeeeverything.

In terms of minor changes here and there, I really do question the wisdom of only receiving credit for 1000 words. I would definitely like to see either a potential quality bonus or a reduction in the word cap to 500 or 750. In any case, that will be all from me.

In regard to that last comment, you always receive credit for everything you write, even if it's only 100 words.

Bonuses (except PM bonus) require 1000 words, and when it comes down to it, 1000 words is not a lot.

1) I agree with this, but I think we should stick with that one thread for now, have everyone submit their own character pages and such. We just need to keep plugging that thread for people to stay active in it.

2) This has been on my to-do list for far too long. I've tried multiple times to approach it -- the Spirit Arts Compendium is one attempt at that -- but it always falls by the wayside. So let's start by making it a community thing: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1no8m2alTK_ihKcbXdMzvWTj6AN0xDOuRTinBQSJN9jg/edit

Everyone, go here, and link every relevant rule or stat sheet. Also, list any "unwritten" rules or rules that can't be found easily.

3) We have a legitimate Facebook group and Twitter. Hare used to do a good job of keeping Twitter updates going but I think he lost the password. Having social media is not all there is to it. People have to be plugging it and sharing it.

 

[Kago]

On a related but different note, I am working on creating a "Welcome to MangaDen" video to promote the site and hopefully garner interest for new users and potential writers. While I plan on doing the video editing and everything on my own (including a walk-through of the different features and location of important items on the site), I thought it would be a good idea to include other people in the video.

There is no pressure to be involved if you don’t want to; that’s fine. This is more of an invite if you are interested. I was looking for people to help do voice-overs and/or provide their thoughts on the site/why they keep using it. Also, feedback and ideas are appreciated.

If you want to be a part of this video, let me know via IM or PM.

 

[Pho]

Once upon a time, I ran a community, and I kept changing systems a lot. Eventually I realized that most of that effort was in fact a waste of time. I'm sure a lot of us have the desire to improve, but let's not focus too much on our systems, and forget the number one asset here, which is people. Our systems are good, so for the most part let's leave them alone, and instead focus on bringing in new people.

 

[Beaks]

@kago: No worries, just sayin a timeskip could solve some issues and be relentlessly awesome.
@van: That bit where you went after week-end chapters has got to be the most arrogant close-minded thing I've ever seen from you, and it surprises and disappoints me more than you know. When something is posted is no indication of whether its 'fluff' or not. I have laughably little time during the week to write, so I usually end up thoughtsourcing and brainstorming shit all week and once I have it lined up mentally it gets put to html Friday or Saturday.

tl;dr - What the eff man.

Anyhoo, currently got posts up on FB to hopefully drum up some interest. Will let you know if anything develops.

 

[Eidolon]

@Beaks

I'm responding solely to you because you expressed your disappointment in my questioning the value of 'last minute' chapters as part of my argument that the system of character growth is flawed. Personally, I like you, so I feel its only appropriate that I express my reasons.

Everyone I've known on a personal level (talk to face to face) who engaged in this RP has had the same story. And remember I attended RP meetings, having met with a wide variety of the writers(sadly many of which are not longer with us). There are weeks they publish chapters purely for the purpose of earning points to continue increasing their character's strength. It was not a creative or desired effort, but a labor of requirement. Believing in some of what Borgman and Marx said about labor, I concluded that this behavior is detrimental to the what I believe the purpose of this social collaboration to be: to have fun and flex creative muscle.

I said most if not all have indulged in this behavior, and if you honestly scrutinize your entire stay over the course of your time here in the RP(generic you) I believe you will find that you have as well. Not always. Maybe not often. But you have.

I did not mean to say that all players push 'fluff' and 'filler' always when posting near the deadline. That's just obnoxious as a claim, and if I ever did claim that you have every right to be upset.

I have also observed this as a grader and interested reader. Our writers will produce lower quality, lower value, or flat out unfulfilling stories, and there is a correlation about the time they are posted, or(and) why they are posted. Not always, but it is there.

I hope that's of some value to you, Beaks.

 

[swaswj]

It was not a creative or desired effort, but a labor of requirement. Believing in some of what Borgman and Marx said about labor, I concluded that this behavior is detrimental to the what I believe the purpose of this social collaboration to be: to have fun and flex creative muscle.

It's interesting that you used this expression, because it's the very example I would use to argue against this line.

So, first point: Yes, because there is a deadline, and because there is a clear reward for hitting that deadline, people are encouraged to write more as the deadline approaches. Sometimes, to hit the deadline, we either put out lower-quality work, or put smaller samples of higher-quality work by breaking it into parts. I know I've taken points from people who posted something that wasn't bad, but was clearly unable to stand on its own.

I still contend, however, that this is a good thing for any aspiring writer. If people don't enjoy writing, they won't do it, points or not. Whether it's the community, the RP aspect, or the writing itself, everyone is here because there's something here they enjoy. Getting writing posted, receiving points, and having others read the story arcs for their characters all leads to some form of satisfaction. 'Fun' is a given, because once it stops being fun, people will leave.

Even if the writing is rushed, it's still getting done. Creativity and writing, like any muscles, need to be flexed. 'Use it or lose it,' after all. By encouraging people to write more often, it keeps the juices flowing, keeps those creative gears spinning in your head. The longer you go without writing, the easier it is to put writing off. It's no different from going to a gym to stay on top of your game. Is flexing your muscles to lift weights as satisfying as playing football or basketball or hockey? Both are flexing your muscles, though, and both are important.

My writing did not get where it is today because I sat around and waited for the perfect idea to strike me from above. I got to where I am now by writing constantly, by writing a lot of bad stories until I started seeing good stories shine through. Writing is hard, though, and sometimes you need an incentive to keep at it.

Quantity cannot be a bad thing, because without it, quality can never follow.

 

[Eidolon]

@Beaks

I'm responding solely to you because you

I really wasn't expecting a response from anyone but beaks. Beaks put up a statement noting he was disappointed in something I said, so I elaborated for him.

There are weeks they publish chapters purely for the purpose of earning points to continue increasing their character's strength. It was not a creative or desired effort, but a labor of requirement.

I think you missed the subtext, though I don't think its really subtext due to the fact it was pretty clearly stated at the end. These aren't chapters written because someone wanted to be a better writer. The were written purely under the motivation of adding points to a intangible character so that they might better or more affect the fictional world they populate.

It's interesting that you used this expression, because it's the very example I would use to argue against this line.

So, first point: Yes, because there is a deadline, and because there is a clear reward for hitting that deadline, people are encouraged to write more as the deadline approaches. Sometimes, to hit the deadline, we either put out lower-quality work, or put smaller samples of higher-quality work by breaking it into parts. I know I've taken points from people who posted something that wasn't bad, but was clearly unable to stand on its own.

I'm going to say this pretty bluntly. I never said remove the grading deadline. I said change the system used to represent characters in order to curb its negative tendencies: an ever expanding sliding window of character gaps with a relationship based on time caused due to an infinite, weekly incremental update based on production.

If in a given week someone writes, they get a peer review of their work. But this processes isn't what ties down the value of their fictional character.

I still contend, however, that this is a good thing for any aspiring writer. If people don't enjoy writing, they won't do it, points or not.

Only noting the second line here, but what? I've had quite a few people tell me the exact opposite of what this claims, people in the RP (or who have been in the RP). Would they have the courage to state so in this thread? Dunno, but I hope so. They are writing, and they don't enjoy it, rather, it is a burden on their lives as they do it. But they are doing it for the motivation of a continued character gain. They have to keep up with the Jones'.

Whether it's the community, the RP aspect, or the writing itself, everyone is here because there's something here they enjoy. Getting writing posted, receiving points, and having others read the story arcs for their characters all leads to some form of satisfaction. 'Fun' is a given, because once it stops being fun, people will leave.

Not to be a jerk, but, our numbers decrease with time, not increase.

Even if the writing is rushed, it's still getting done. Creativity and writing, like any muscles, need to be flexed. 'Use it or lose it,' after all. By encouraging people to write more often, it keeps the juices flowing, keeps those creative gears spinning in your head. The longer you go without writing, the easier it is to put writing off. It's no different from going to a gym to stay on top of your game. Is flexing your muscles to lift weights as satisfying as playing football or basketball or hockey? Both are flexing your muscles, though, and both are important.

My writing did not get where it is today because I sat around and waited for the perfect idea to strike me from above. I got to where I am now by writing constantly, by writing a lot of bad stories until I started seeing good stories shine through. Writing is hard, though, and sometimes you need an incentive to keep at it.

I don't like this analogy, and I've heard it before. The brain is not a muscle. Cognitive Science, Psychology, and Neurology all want to chip in here.

Now, that being said, people are diverse, for some, what you say is true. For others, its flatly wrong.

There's actually a great TED talk about this type of structure, specifically geared towards gaming and feeding addictions.

Quantity cannot be a bad thing, because without it, quality can never follow.

I get that rhetoric is important in gathering 'hearts' to a cause, but, when you read this aloud and think about it, this just falls to pieces. Think about all the aspects of quality that come from unique productions, the striking of a muse, inspiration from out of no where, epiphanies and so on.

Quality can and does exist without quantity. In some cases, practice and continued effort do help to improve the quality of work.

If you really want to open a can of worms on how difficult quality really is: read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. Its got other themes, but its a good read for a diligent mind.

It isn't about changing the fact we encourage people to write, and use a peer review system to add constructive criticism to what they accomplish. Its about changing a system that is recognized by many accomplished professionals as exploiting, dangerous, and manipulative(see TED talk).

 

[Eidolon]

lawl double tap.

 

[Time Lady Katie]

HD is dangerous and manipulative now?

I contend that under your desired system of operations - which has been at best poorly explained causing us to misinterpret it - we still would be losing members instead of gaining. Why? Because we're really bad at marketing. Like, really, really bad. No one cares what's under the hood if they don't know the car even exists.

And as for weekly writing, your points about the cognitive sciences are well-taken, and if Will was literally saying the brain needed endurance training you might be standing on less shaky ground, but the point wasn't quite that. The point was this: I have four chapters I need to write about Adelaide learning Kindou spells. Without the weekly deadline, my motivation to actually write these is pretty damn low. I wanted to do one this week, but I already had something for grading. Next week I don't. Next week I have to write one of these chapters. Depending on when I sit down to do it, it might turn out horrible. I might lack the inspiration, I might not be moved by beautiful-haired muses. But writing it anyway is good for me, because it pushes me through the writer's block.

In my novel writing it can take me months to get to the next chapter because of how discouraging the writer's block can be. Here, it's a week whether I'm ready or not. And that smashes that block into little pieces.

 

[Doc]

They are writing, and they don't enjoy it, rather, it is a burden on their lives as they do it. But they are doing it for the motivation of a continued character gain. They have to keep up with the Jones'.

I can't speak for anybody else on this board. However, I can speak for myself and I, frankly, find it insulting. If for even a single second writing here felt like a burden I would stop. There aren't any replacements in my life for creative expression in the form of exploring themes and characters in, essentially, any way I like. The fact that I have a "deadline" is less a requirement for earning additional numbers and more a motive to actually write these ideas down rather than let them fester in the back of my head until I forget.

All of the points themselves are meaningless to me - the only time that they come into play are in a player-versus-player scenario which barely constitutes even 10% of the writing I post. Else, everything I drop down is some kind of development or exploration of a theme that I and any that collab with me can mess with as we please without paying any attention to any kind of stat.

whether or not it's good is neither here nor there

 

[swaswj]

I really wasn't expecting a response from anyone but beaks. Beaks put up a statement noting he was disappointed in something I said, so I elaborated for him.



I think you missed the subtext, though I don't think its really subtext due to the fact it was pretty clearly stated at the end. These aren't chapters written because someone wanted to be a better writer. The were written purely under the motivation of adding points to a intangible character so that they might better or more affect the fictional world they populate.




I'm going to say this pretty bluntly. I never said remove the grading deadline. I said change the system used to represent characters in order to curb its negative tendencies: an ever expanding sliding window of character gaps with a relationship based on time caused due to an infinite, weekly incremental update based on production.

If in a given week someone writes, they get a peer review of their work. But this processes isn't what ties down the value of their fictional character.




Only noting the second line here, but what? I've had quite a few people tell me the exact opposite of what this claims, people in the RP (or who have been in the RP). Would they have the courage to state so in this thread? Dunno, but I hope so. They are writing, and they don't enjoy it, rather, it is a burden on their lives as they do it. But they are doing it for the motivation of a continued character gain. They have to keep up with the Jones'.




Not to be a jerk, but, our numbers decrease with time, not increase.




I don't like this analogy, and I've heard it before. The brain is not a muscle. Cognitive Science, Psychology, and Neurology all want to chip in here.

Now, that being said, people are diverse, for some, what you say is true. For others, its flatly wrong.

There's actually a great TED talk about this type of structure, specifically geared towards gaming and feeding addictions.




I get that rhetoric is important in gathering 'hearts' to a cause, but, when you read this aloud and think about it, this just falls to pieces. Think about all the aspects of quality that come from unique productions, the striking of a muse, inspiration from out of no where, epiphanies and so on.

Quality can and does exist without quantity. In some cases, practice and continued effort do help to improve the quality of work.

If you really want to open a can of worms on how difficult quality really is: read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. Its got other themes, but its a good read for a diligent mind.

It isn't about changing the fact we encourage people to write, and use a peer review system to add constructive criticism to what they accomplish. Its about changing a system that is recognized by many accomplished professionals as exploiting, dangerous, and manipulative(see TED talk).

I didn't miss the subtext, but you missed my point: regardless of why people try to write, the act of writing is a positive thing. Whether they are actively trying to become better writers or not, by continuing to write, they are taking steps toward that end.

Barring anecdotal and fictional accounts, list for me some examples of people making great strides in quality without either a) lots of time and effort in a related field or b) lots of research on or exposure to relevant subjects. An epiphany is not spontaneous -- it is the culmination of everything you've put forward. Our entire modern culture is built upon the successful use of quantity to produce quality, building upon centuries of trial, error, research, and development.

Quality is not spontaneous: it doesn't spring forth from a vacuum. It can come from unexpected places; a person can discover that their knack for telling stories makes them uniquely qualified to be an author despite never considering it before adulthood. A person can find that they have an analytical mind suited to certain programming languages despite writing for most of their life. It's not a matter of quality springing from nowhere, though.

 

[Beaks]

Wow, this shitstormed quickly.

@Van: I took your comments for something that they weren't and I apologize. I am as guilty as anyone of posting last minute chapters from time to time that did little to further plot, be it personal or reflective of the RP as a whole. While I agree that its entirely possible for people to post unfulfilling, purposeless chapters I also know that it falls to the responsibility of graders, faction heads, and writing partners in the RP to make sure someone understands that what they're posting isn't up to snuff (See Wind grading Zeal for a more extreme example).

I thank you for taking the time to further explain your thoughts, Van. I haven't had the opportunity to work with you much in a one-on-one sense in writing, but I do carry a good deal of respect for you, so thanks for forgiving my outburst.

As for the rest of this...(makes fumbling gesture)...whatever this is, I really can't see too much good coming from it. With the implementation of secondary characters people are able to branch out even further and play with different races and organizations. Hell, you could still pretty effectively play with yourself too if you wanted.

...wait.

 

[Eidolon]

@Will, you are calling the kettle while being the pot. How much did you just breeze by of what I said? But, I see in chat a lot of talk about things I'm pointing out, so there's at least some impact.

I work in a lab that studies learning, with several PhD theses and applied research under its belt in that regard. One of the things we've learned is that indeed, just doing a behavior in order to accomplish a short term goal in the immediate future has very little lasting value. In the example of cramming for a test. The results were two fold: it works. You score better if you are working with the subject matter before you are tested, ala cramming style.

We also learned that long term benefits are terribly bad. You retain little to nothing if you use this method.

So its bad on a cog sci level.

Alternatively, a hybrid distribution model seems to work the best at long term improvement and retention. I could argue its due to the fact you're doing it while keeping interest level with low stress(as we have seen the negative impacts of stress while studying caffeine), but that's a theory with no research behind it, admittedly.

The very system was created as a means to run an arms race. That's plain as day. That's all this system was in the early days. Not only that, but the arms race could only be won if you secured a position that offered 'free growth' on top of writing growth. So you have to rush to get a staff/captaincy spot in order to keep up with the Jones', which creates a stratified effect. Wind was no idiot. I'm quite certain this was a purposeful behavior in order to tier the users based on who he wanted 'in power' and not. Moots continued the line.

You as a GM have taken measures to reduce the impact of those positions, but not eliminate. Which suggests to me you have recognized at least part of the problem, even if you seem bent on not acknowledging it.

So address your quality point in a nutshell: improvement can come from practice, but practice is not as simple as you state, not even close. And the system has over time, proven my point for me.

@Katie We're going like, 0/3 here. That was me using the same rhetorical technique Will did to demonstrate the silliness of it, and double edge it by noting the TED talk on gaming addiction behaviors. Luckily for me, those guys presenting had some fun things I could use, but the issues raised are grim regardless.

 

[K3]

*sigh*

...Remember when Beaks rode a hollow into Mt. Fuji?

Those were good times.

 

[switch5]

Yeah sorry I’m gonna be that guy...

I know I haven’t been around for a while, and this thread seems pretty well dead, but I thought I’d say something because I have had thoughts about this for a while in the rp. Not trying to start arguments, or put any blame on anyone, I’m just looking to make a statement that I feel needs to be said, and maybe have some civil discourse.

This is going to be a bit wordy, but I want to start from the ground up, and try to build a solid argument. For me the issue lies mostly in the stat and bonus system, and while I find other parts of the rp archaic and old, I feel as though they are an afterthought

First and foremost, I think some of the way the rp is put together is truly spectacular. The amount of dedication, writing, and work required to build your "account" fits the power curve as described by Kubo in bleach. As of right now you're forced to pay your dues, and when you get your initial release the power jump is significant, but still puts you nowhere near a BK user, and when you do gain that next level you achieve another significant jump in power, but you're still nowhere near Captain level. The system we have at a glance fits the system we are trying to fit well, forces a huge amount of character development (if you stick to one character) as you undergo every stage of a character's growth from academy to hopefully A tier days.

However the problem in the system to me deeper and twofold. The first and to me least important of the two is that the system we are trying to emulate: Kubo's Bleach is inherently flawed for the approach we're taking. What makes Bleach or another anime, or video game interesting? That we follow a protagonist or group of protagonists as they enter a new unique and special world and grow strong enough to compete with the powerful enemies and friends that are there. Once again at first glance our system is representative of that, as I very briefly touched on above, but on further examination our system really doesn't meet the excitement of those universes that compels people who would want to delve deeper into these universes and rp them, as the protagonists in these stories develop relatively quickly, as opposed to in a number of years (in our time, even if the character takes a number of years to develop, often authors often skip that transition ie Naruto time skip).

To state this bluntly off the bat: No one is Ichigo, or Naruto. That's not nearly as exciting to rp. Obviously we want to prevent the Ichigo's coming into the rp because if every person coming the rp is an Ichigo the rp would just be a bunch of fan fiction trash. But if I'm a noob looking to write some awesome Bleach ideas I had why would I not just write a fan fiction and join this rp. At this point we're giving absolutely no incentive to, the dues you have to pay are obviously too steep for 99.90% of the individuals interested. There's a select group of people who don't mind paying their dues and working their way up the totem pole hoping one day to become Captain. We simply are not catering to the inner Ichigo of the rpers of the world, and it is costing us members.

To compound that, the system we have in place is massively flawed in another area, which pushes even those users who don't mind paying their dues away (the users who are more the ones we're looking for). The amount of writing you need to be able to compete with an A tier individual is ever rising.

25-30k was strong enough to consider entering that A tier category and consider a taishuu
-if Moot hadn't have been the problem then
-also with a few top end outliers
-This group constituted a small amount of the rpers
-This seemed like a semi possible goal

and 10-24k was incredibly strong B tier Vice Captain Worthy
-This group represented a still small yet slightly larger than A tier population
-Seemed like a very reasonable goal

a 5-9k group that was high seated officer and C tier Group
-This group was the majority of the rp
-A realistic and exciting goal with exciting rewards (such as division techs and officer seating)

0-5k beginners
-obviously the starting group
-There were still a fair number in this category at most times

The first thing to note about these categories today after a brief glance at top stats:

25-30k
-Over 50% of the rp
-50% of that group is in a new A+ tier thats over 35-40k
-Now not a reasonable goal for feeling powerful
-Still takes a ton of work, and you get way less to show for your effort.

10-24k
-over 25% of the rp
-Now barely VC Worthy

5-9k and 0-5k beginners
-Everyone else, and how few of them there are.

Basically the way the system is now you don’t see the rewards most writers are hoping for from your effort until about 30k MINIMUM, and that’s assuming no one writes in the time it takes you to get there. To compound this there’s grading and staff bonus. Every week the elite get more of a bonus than most people write in a week, making it all but impossible for anyone to catch up.

If you were a new set of eyes for the rp, and hadn’t built up 20 - 50k+ already would this system seem at all appealing to you? Where if you wrote the minimum EVERY week it would take around 550 weeks to break 30k, and even then only be weak Captain/VC tier. And even then our member base is still writing and getting their bonuses, only further increasing that threshold.

If we want new members this needs to change, because it’s only getting worse day after day. I have no great ideas on how to change it, but would be willing to participate in discussions on how to, or if we want to just keep this the small group we have until we all give up or move on that’s fine. But I hope this is as apparent to all of you as it is to me, and I hope that you all want to change this to keep HD alive and well for years to come.

PS I am at work, my home computer is not working. I know I didn’t edit this properly so try to ignore typos if there are any, and look deeper to the comments. I will edit if HP can get its act together and fix my comp, or the next time i'm in the office alone if necessary. But right now my boss had caught me typing this enough times to continue...

 

[swaswj]

It's a problem I've been mentioning here and in chat, and I think you've explained it better than either I or Van were able to.

Here comes the problem as regards fixing it this late in the game, though, and maybe it's not as much of a problem as I'm thinking it is:

There is a lot of work that went into achieving what the writers here have achieved. Some, like Van, have written for 7-8 years. I myself have written for five years here. Keep this fact in mind.

The two main approaches to dealing with this power creep are to 1) dramatically increase the gains for lower tiers and institute some kind of diminishing returns for upper tiers, making it easier to hit new thresholds, or 2) retroactively cap power at a certain point and find another outlet for overage of points.

Both cases belittle the effort that went into the existing characters, 'punishing' the ones who put in the most time and effort throughout the years. If the problem had been caught earlier in the RP, I see it as being easier to cure.

We could do a timeskip, NPC some of the more powerful chars and have everyone start fresh.

We could keep going and try to increase the benefits for lower-tiers to encourage people.

We could put a cap and have extra points go into new characters.

Some combination of the above.

None of the available options are ideal. A timeskip will invalidate all the plot and character-growth put together over the last 5-8 years, but give room for new, fresh plot. Upping the benefits will give greater gains early on but rush people toward the infinite top faster.

Of course, it's all moot if we don't attract new people to the site to begin with so they can even see the RP to decide if they like it or not.

 

[Beaks]

Of course, it's all moot

Clever girl.

 

[switch5]

Indeed Beaks...

First sorry if what I posted was redundant, I haven't been in chat much lately, and I just felt like contributing because I have had some thoughts about the matter.

Basically Will I agree with everything you said. That is unfortunately why I didn't offer any opinions on how to fix the system, because like you said, this problem would have been significantly easier to fix if we had realized the problem earlier on. I understand that no one in this rp wants a reset, and their character development and work to be invalidated. I've never like the idea of punishing higher tier characters, as the work we all have put in (some more than others) is something that cannot be discredited.

I do agree our primary concern is drawing more attention the the rp, and successfully drawing in new members. To me it seems more logical to attempt to draw in a new crowd once we make the rp more attractive as a beginner, no matter how we decide to fix it. I completely see how for some it wouldn't be worth it to change the system only to have us fail to draw in more members. To me even if we manage to get people to consider us, the issues I brought up would make it scare off many of the members who would be willing to give us a try.

Some thoughts on ways we could rework the system:

We could do a timeskip, NPC some of the more powerful chars and have everyone start fresh.

This to me seems like a bandaid, maybe in conjunction with another one of the options, but on its own this is a temporary fix to the problem.

We could keep going and try to increase the benefits for lower-tiers to encourage people.

I think no matter what we we should institute this in the rp. 10% bonus for 3 weeks might have been a good bonus back in the day, but it means practically nothing these days. To me now a days just to state numbers even 200% for a month isn't even that much considering how much catching up beginners have to do. Maybe we could do like a sliding scale, 200% for a month, 150% for another month? Just spouting out ideas that may or may not be terrible. We could even constitute this at other tiers and milestones of character development (BK/SK/New officer position).

We could put a cap and have extra points go into new characters.

That might work, I think this in particular is a better idea than anything I've manage to come up with. It still makes the work a writer has put in feel worthwhile as you still have the stats you've accumulated even if it's spread out in characters, and directly affects the huge power level problems. It also can create situations where noobs have someone their power level to rp with, as an old could be starting a new character at that point.

Some other ideas I've toyed with just to think about:

Bonuses:

I think grading and staff bonus in comparison to the points you get for writing are two extreme. Is staffing worth 2,000 words of writing? Is grading worth 4,000? Maybe sometimes, but often I think that's not the case. I am all for rewarding people for their hard work in the rp but it can lead to problems. Maybe increase the Division bonus a grader can give out to more directly benefit quality writing and character development? Still this isn't a fix for the problem, maybe when combined with something else.

RP Wide Stat Reduction:

Even typing that made me shudder. I really don't think its fair to the rp as a whole, but if we want to make things more welcoming all of us taking a large % chunk of our reiatsu to make higher tiers seem more achievable it is a direct way of doing it. I think the character cap going into new character accomplishes this better, but still its worth mulling over... maybe

Once again, this is all just me talking, it's clear to all of us there isn't an easy fix for this.