Vizard Thoughts

[Eidolon]

Now that I've got a grip on Vizards, I've been thinking and looking at them intently.

There's about 3 changes I want to make in total, that are:

1) Masks are more important: 20% buff to a stat when masked/ressurected; But I don't think Vizards have any ground shown that suggests they should have a Unique Feat slot bonus, so nix that.

2) No extra Kai slot: Rather that when masked, they get a change to a kai slot that mixes in Rage and amplifies the effect of an attack or explicitly offensive ability.

3) Garg goes anywhere not explicitly protected: Just seems common sense.

Now, the reasoning behind them.

1) Its all about the mask. When they aren't masked, Vizards are more or less just normal shinigami. However, it is very apparent that the masking process greatly enhances the user. This is clear as day when you read/watch the fights between Ichigo and Byak in the climax of the SS arc, and Ichigo vs Grimjaw all through the Arrancar arc. Also in the Turn Back arc, each hollowfied C/VC is greatly stronger when masked.

Examples: Ichigo apologizes for the unfair fight to Byak when he goes mask, and Grimmjaw isn't even interested in Ichigo unless he masks, taunting him and saying several times he's no match when he's not. He goes from being unable to keep up with Grimmjow in speed or melee to beating him cleanly. Same with Byak. Even the Vice Captain Machiro is able to pressure her captain when masked, a feat that he states is surprising and frightening.

I suppose the argument "we're not canon" could be used here, but it rather falls flat, since were talking about the essence of what a vizard is.

2) This one is rather cut and dry. Never are new abilities shown when masked, just augmentations to the existing kai (for hybrids like Ichigo). Obviously for Ressurection, change up is fair game (as shown by Tousen). I just like the thematics on that too.

3) People garg not only into Soul Society, but right into Seireitei in the manga and anime. But, I do like the idea that just plinking into the main enemy strongholds doesn't work, so keeping it to outer SS/HM/and anything not shielded on earth seems legit.

I like the idea of a unique div tech depending on if you go hybrid/ressurection, and put a lot of work into that, so nothing to do there.

Current vizards, future vizards, and players in general, what do you think of this and vizards in general?

 

[K3]

Assuming this is open for discussion, sorry if it's not.

I like the ideas, but with a stat buff and Rage damage amps (which kinda levels masked state with Overdrive in mechanics) there should probably be a tangible cost, risk, or time limit/condition enforced when masked.

Advent Humans have to pay a rather large amount of reiatsu to get to their Overdrive state, where they then get their stat boost and amped up base techs. Maybe Vizards have to naturally gain a certain amount of Rage before they can mask, or the amount of Rage they gain is non-optional while Masked?

The former system has it set up that using Rage attacks is optional - which lets a Vizard sustain their masked state indefinitely. If they're getting a persistent 20% boost to a stat, there should be a drawback.

Just some thoughts, I like the change ideas overall, and hope that some balancers can be put into place.

 

[Eidolon]

Makes sense. One could argue that the social cost of being a vizard is high, but honestly with their now neutral status, I don't think that cuts the cake.

Perhaps a system that says, If you don't use rage on a turn you gain some % of it instead, encouraging diligent use? The trick there is what % of rage is decent but not overly punishing.

Alternatively, turning your mask on and off always incurs some sort of % rage gain?

 

[K3]

Well spending Rage gains it, doesn't it? (Or am I misunderstanding the mechanic..?)

I like the idea that being in Masked state would gradually gain Rage - which gives is a more temporary nature. This also lends some more credence to the current mechanic that having a Tamed Inner Hollow auto-loses 30% Rage per week.

Example: Theron goes into his Masked State, and begins to gain Rage at a rate of 5% per round. He gains additional Rage from any amplified attacks he uses (i.e. his altered kai ability, cero, etc.). He may exit Masked State at any time, and now only gains Rage from any amplified attacks he uses.

It gives Vizards a reason to more closely watch their Rage, as it becomes a quickly-accumulating resource that they have to factor into their combat as much as a stat threshold.

Thoughts?

 

[Nargles]

I think vizards really should play up the whole risk vs. reward gameplay really well. The benefits from vizardification (see things like Rez, base techs, rage-boosted attacks) should be met with a more prevalent risk factor. Perhaps not as penalizing as say Quincy shuuhaku balance, but one the constant balancing between rage and emptiness was a fun mechanic to play around.

Personally, I really like rage and emptiness being two separate entities (though I'm probably in a very small minority of people who do). I liked it because it showed a threat from both sides. Not using vizard powers caused the overflow of rage, and constant usage built up emptiness. It was a fun see-saw mechanic, that while a wonky in the numbers, was interesting. I always see vizards as sort of a veteran class, something for people who have a decent handle at the RP. Perhaps increasing more potent risk factors, while in turn reevaluating the rewards could make them more distinctive.

 

[Eidolon]

So talking around about this, its seems like the rage and emptiness split is smiled upon. Short examples:

Rage - Cost of using abilities, generally a 2:1 ratio unless stated otherwise. Degrades at 30% per week if tamed. High or amounts of rage cause the vizard to become more aggressive, to the point of nearly psychotic aggression when one reaches 70%(100% for resurrection) or more.

Emptiness - The cost of being masked. In a round in which rage is gained, you generate no emptiness, but if you do not generate rage, you gain 5%. Lose 15% per week if tamed. More emptiness causes a magnification of the negative emotions that are at the core of the vizard, the emotion that would guide the spirit were they to be a hollow. At 70% or more emptiness, that emotion is nearly entirely dominant on their actions, and strictly overwhelms other feelings.

Both gain 10% if not tamed.

Thoughts?

Note: Think of these recoup numbers for both in terms of PM's. We might want them at 20/10% regains per week or so, I'm a little hazy on doing the mental math of averages here.

 

[Eidolon]

Also some thoughts on the stat gain. You pick it when you are hollowfied, and it can't change (unless you pay the kan for a stat change). I also don't think it should increase thresholds for that stat, both for balance concerns (more kidou threshold is very powerful, others are powerful too), and for the conceptual nature of the Vizard.

 

[Time Lady Katie]

I'm really excited about seeing the Emptiness/Rage see-saw! It's kinda exciting. I also agree that the Vizards are now more or less just Earth-Side Shinigami instead of being massively oppressed. Also I really agree with the stat boost idea instead of the unique feat slot. It always seemed odd to me that the mask wasn't more significant to Vizardship, and that somehow the mask, which wasn't intrinsic to the feat slot, provided a feat slot. It seemed odd, honestly. I support all these changes, and if I didn't love the Tenth Division, I'd consider infecting Adelaide. Lashiel is basically a hollow already.

 

[swaswj]

Call me "Dictator Will" or what-have-you, but one thing I don't intend to consider is adding Emptiness back as a mechanic.

If you want to pursue this discussion, form your thoughts around the stats that are currently there. I'll respond in more depth later on, but I wanted to make sure that the conversation doesn't get too derailed talking about a stat that will not be returning.

 

[Eidolon]

Let me start this with a caveat: this is not an e-peen waving, I'm serious. Now, onto the big question.

Why?

At first when mentioned I was skeptical, however; the combination of Raph's and Narg's suggestions really are quite spot on when you just sit down and lay out the Vizard position. Its a thematic and mechanical hit. So, despite initial skepticism, I shopped around the concept in chat and a few IMs, trying to get a feel for what people thought about it while trying to be neutral in my own position.

I was surprised to find it was generally liked. Balancing mask duration(emptiness) with available power(rage) and the drawbacks of both (strong negative/hollow emotion and aggression respectively) are good.

In fact, I'm tempted to bring back the idea that with higher emptiness you suffer a hit to that chosen stat while not masked. Some punishment that isn't at the end line, if you would. And like was mentioned, this is a veteran's class, so if people can't handle that bit of mechanical swagger they might not be ready anyway.

So, with genuine intent, why? Just dropping in and squashing something with no reason on then 'I said so' mucks up the whole thing and doesn't feel very credible.

 

[swaswj]

The reason is quite simple:

I refuse to go through and rebuild and rebalance the entire race, all techs, all feats, releases, etc, to accommodate an additional stat, while also having to rebalance any other changes you all talk about. It doesn't make sense to keep track of two bars when you can have one bar.

Having 2 bars introduces at least 5 different states that have to be accounted for: Neutral; High Emptiness, High Rage; High Emptiness, Low Rage; Low Emptiness, High Rage; Low Emptiness, Low Rage. That's 5 different possible 'modes' for one race, and every single facet of vizardom will be impacted by it and has to be reviewed 5 different ways.

Could it be done? Potentially. Is anyone besides me going to end up doing it? Obviously not.

A lot of what you're asking for is absolutely absurd in turns of balance, but I will genuinely examine whether there's some way to actually work it in. You know, in spite of the fact that we've had this conversation before numerous times and it has been agreed, even by you when it wasn't about vizards, that raw stat boosts generally ruin all sense of balance.

Whether you like it or not, I will not add Emptiness back in. So take advantage of the fact that I'm considering how a stat boost can work in a system that has all but abolished stat boosts, and think about what you want to do without adding an unnecessary additional stat.

If writing the war within yourself between reason and the encroachment of primal rage isn't compelling enough, you can add in your own RP elements to add flair. Without a 6th stat to track.

 

[Eidolon]

Have to disagree with what's being said here to an extent. On a personal level: I said abolishing stat mods from kais was great. I also raged immediately after seeing the shape Vizards were in when I saw it: bad. That's what started the conversation. There was no sense of purpose or coherence to it all and as I said then I say now: its all about the mask.

The argument of states is rather flawed. If you aren't high on any of them it is par for the course, it'd only matter if you had a lot of one or not. In fact, even with 2 bars its not going to be any more complicated then AH's stat tracking. One is, add 5(assumed) to a scale of 100 if I don't use a vizard ability. The other is add the rage cost to this(whole numbers representing a percentile added to a similar scale of 100).

Further, from a design scheme the two as described are quite useful and carry a purpose. One is to distinguish the power one has available while in a masked state (rage) the other to determine how long you can be in that state (emptiness). Overusing one, or the other, should carry distinct penalties to make the resulting experience worth while.

And frankly, if someone can't handle some basic arithmetic probably shouldn't be playing a Vizard in the first place, let alone use the general system we have, which does require conversions (whole numbers to % against a flat value in the tens of thousands for most).

If you're overburdened, conduct an appointment of another GM, the spots been open for a while now.

As as for absurd in terms of balance, again where's the actual context or data to back this up? Its half or less of what was allowed for bk ability slots. It won't give threshold. A single stat buff that can only be used when in a certain state that requires resource use and management causing it to be limited, carrying the risk of a penalty to that stat if taxed, to have to be vizard in the first place, and CHARACTER DEATH. I don't see it.

 

[Eidolon]

On another note, I've been thinking about kidou specialist Vizards. Adding to the stat would be weird in that suddenly you get more slots you can't use, and no extra threshold to cast with. As a thought to that, instead of adding to the stat, perhaps adding 20% to the threshold itself would be a better pay for them. It has its own problems for extreme specialists (more threshold then rei?), but the real power of that would show during PMs and such when one's resources are limited and worth tracking.

 

[swaswj]

The answer is no, Van.

If your response to, "It's too much work," is "work harder or hire someone else to do the work," then I really have nothing else to say on the subject.

Work your idea around just one bonus stat or not at all.

 

[Time Lady Katie]

Work your idea around just one bonus stat or not at all.

I don't wanna take sides in what promises to be a thrilling match of epeen, but is bonus stat the right term for something that only generates negative consequences and has no positive application? That's more of a penalty than anything. Maybe 'additional' or 'special' would be a better choice of words, oh fearless leader.

 

[swaswj]

I don't wanna take sides in what promises to be a thrilling match of epeen, but is bonus stat the right term for something that only generates negative consequences and has no positive application? That's more of a penalty than anything. Maybe 'additional' or 'special' would be a better choice of words, oh fearless leader.

Spare me the sarcasm.

Rage's very existence is a positive application. It enables the usage of all the hollow techniques and can be used to directly enhance non-hollow techniques. The fact that the bar counts up rather than down doesn't make it less of a bonus.

I promised a more in-depth response and now I have some time to properly discuss it.

Emptiness / a 6th stat:

You can call me a hardass or whatever creatively derogatory complaints you can think of, but we're only going to have one stat. I don't see there being any more advantage in Rage + Emptiness than there was in Reiatsu + Connection. They can each serve different thematic purposes but you're tracking the same thing two different ways. Keeping that in mind, it's more advantageous to look at how to use that one stat. For starters, let's take a look at what stats we currently use:

Reiatsu is a full bar that drains as you use it up. Your combat stats are static, for the most part. Resonance is an empty bar that fills up throughout combat but can drop if momentum is lost or expelled. Shuuhaku is a bar that fills up every turn.

Currently Rage is 0-100, a bar that fills up as you use attacks and depletes as you cool off.

I won't accept having two different bars, but one thing to consider is a sliding bar (perhaps -50 to 50 or -100 to 100) that measures where the vizard currently lies. In terms of 'modes' mentioned before, our current setup is really two modes: high or low. A sliding scale with be three modes: high, neutral, or low. That's still an additional pain to balance, but it's not as bad. Something for you to consider, in any case. Or you can reject it. I've made my position clear on that, though.
​

Stat bonuses:

Canon examples are a bad visual, I think, since they're often inconsistent. If we look at canon, though, there are three things we can say for sure the mask does: it makes the user more durable, it makes the user stronger, and it allows them to use hollow-like abilities.

I am not certain it makes the user faster, it doesn't make them more skilled, and I don't see any clear indication whether the mask helps kidou at all.

At one point the mask lets Ichigo easily defeat a captain. At another point, Ichigo cannot fight on even terms against Grimmjow without the mask, while the same captain easily dispatches an Espada of similar strength. Does the mask make Ichigo stronger or has he become weakened by his reliance on it? That last bit is something I'd be interested in seeing reflected in the RP, if it can be done.

By proposing a +20% bonus to all stats, we are suggesting the following: it gives the user more reiatsu, it gives the user more skill with a sword, more skill hand-to-hand, more speed and power with kidou, more speed, more strength, access to hollow abilities, and increased durability. That's too much with no caveats.

No other race can utilize stat boosts except an AH in Overdrive. At best, Overdrive is 4-5 rounds and often is only one or two, and requires building up to it by spending at least 50% of base reiatsu. The mask, meanwhile, would be available at any given time and currently for an indefinite length of time.

There's currently no means of targeting the mask or forcing a vizard to de-mask. An opponent would simply stuck fighting an opponent who is suddenly 20% stronger in every possible way + has extra destructive abilities that may or may not detract from their reiatsu, for as long as the vizard is able to fight.

If stat-boosting while masked is going to be considered, here are the things to think about:
​

What is getting boosted?
What is the requirement for putting the mask on?
What is the cost for keeping the mask on?
Why should a vizard want to use their mask?
Why should a vizard not use their mask at all times?
Should there be a way to forcibly unmask a target?
​

Garganta:

This is a plothole patch, and I'm unapologetic about it. The way garganta is shown to work in canon, there is no excuse for Soul Society to not be invaded every minute of every day. If the Espada or a force of hollows just decided to garganta into Soul Society, they could consume the majority of Rukongai while the Shinigami are under siege in Seireitei.

Getting to Soul Society is not meant to be easy. Neither is getting to Hueco Mundo.

The way it has been in the RP for a very long time, is that Senkaimon can go from Soul Society <-> Living World. Garganta can go from Living World <-> Hueco Mundo.

There is one specially-prepared and heavily-monitored Senkaimon that was enhanced by Saika Rakushun to create short-lived gates from Soul Society <-> Hueco Mundo. Kindou has a forbidden spell which can be used to go directly between any of the three, at the cost of 5 kidou slots, a feat slot / the user's Style slot.

In order for garganta to travel to Soul Society, it would need to have limitations and risks somewhere on that same level. It should never be just, "Dude, I want to go cruising in Soul Society." Perhaps you can submit a vizard trained feat to augment the regular garganta.

Basic garganta cannot travel to Soul Society unless garganta itself comes with steep costs to offset its freedom.
​

Closing thoughts:

Being a vizard is partly about a power-trip, that's just how it's set up. God mode gets boring, though. Writing that lacks conflict and struggle becomes stale. I know that better than anyone just by virtue of writing a lot and thus having a PC who now exists more as a force than a character. If vizards are all power and no penalty, or no credible penalty, then it's just god mode and that doesn't mean much for faction longevity.

Let me see some vizard vs shinigami battles on even footing with the current set-up. Show me some proof that vizards are underwhelming as they currently are. Maybe I've missed something but I don't believe a fight like that has been attempted. I think the current abilities of vizards are being underestimated. So changes are going to be give and take.

I'm not going to belittle what Sev does, but when it comes down to it, most of the mechanics stuff is going to fall on me. I know pretty well what I'm capable of and what I'm willing to put into something. If it's not something I see a value in, it's not going to get done. If you want to see changes, then sell me on their value... but respect my limitations.
​

Edit:

Belatedly, someone has pointed out that it was "a stat" and not "all stats." So that brings down the absurdity a bit, but not enough for me to rewrite the post >.>

 

[Sormeki]

I know I haven’t been back long, and my opinion on the matter may be outdated since I am still trying to catch up on some of the changes over the past five or so years, but it seems to me that people are coming at this a bit wrong. Now, I’m not trying to take sides or step on anyone’s toes here but I think perhaps this discussion over if emptiness should come back or not is detracting from making significant progress on this topic.

I understand where both sides are coming from, but it is important to remember that when you boil it all down the stats are more or less a guiding force and not the end all of the characters. Granted, the stats are important and it is important they be balanced to keep the game fun and fair to all, but at their core they are more or less there to represent the relative strength and abilities of the character. Whereas the writing itself is there to bring it all together.

For example, if Player A has 7,000 reiatsu and Player B has 4,500 reiatsu from a stat point of view Player A is significantly stronger. However, from a roleplaying point of view the two could still give each other a run for their money. As a guideline Player A has a slight advantage, but if Player B is both clever and a capable writer that still have the ability to come out on top.

All that being said, a solution mechanically speaking, for this issue that I was just thinking about could potentially be a bit of a compromise to the situation. Instead of having two bars to keep track of, perhaps it could be worked that there is on bar that can go in two directions, representing what two bars would have in a single bar. It would cut down on the large number of combinations, give it a simply complexity that would be far easier to balance around, and would give the mechanical guideline that is being sought.

EDIT: Seems Will beat me to the sliding scale idea. And after I decided to concede and let him have my font.

 

[Nargles]

Just a random input, but I think the rage/emptiness was misworded. I think it wasn't explained well but from what I heard from Van, he was aiming it to be that way. Or at least Alan wanted to do that. "Emptiness" would essentially be going 0 from the negative point. 0 would be baseline and I think the set up idea would be that if you use vizard abilities you go positive on the rage scale. If you don't use vizard abilities you start to build up hollow energy and go negative on the emptiness scale.

 

[Beaks]

Ohmygosh pissed Kyle is best Kyle.

My .00000000000000000000000000000002$:

If the stat boost system got abolished it should probably stay abolished. On the subject of the mask giving 20% to a stat (or whatever number was proposed) with no tangible cost or setback, I'm going to go ahead and put something here by someone who said it better than I can.

Doing a GM review on the 11th's tech, Martyr's Reckoning.

This is simple, you have a division tech that eclipses a ban kai in many ways:
It goes over the % increase limit to stats for bankai release, the strongest thing in the game
It does this for three stats

Applies even more if you're going to have it apply for multiple stats.

But since it's redundant to do negative without positive, why not make it a damage buff over time (similar to what you and I talked about in Kai chattins, Van). Have the Vizards inflicted damage increase at a rate of 5% per round and have damage received increase by 5% per round. It would give the RPer a tangible reward for being masked, an incentive to use the mask for something besides a static Reiatsu buff, but have a feasible enough drawback for Vizards not to be OP straight out of the box.

Just thoughts.

 

[Eidolon]

@Will and @Beaks a little to

No one's insulting anyone else in this thread, so I'm not sure why you keep prefacing your posts with this.

I'm wondering if you're really reading what's been said here, as you spent a huge post going over an idea that wasn't even presented. And no because I said so is quite frankly, terrible precedent. You're one of the heads of the RP and you're having a closed discussion (in the philosophical sense). Meaning, that you've made your mind up before you even hear what the other person is saying. That's disturbing to me. And notably, something you've said I have a bad habit of doing. On to the meat.

So, instead of two bars, tracking two distinct ideas: your power reserve while masked, and how long you can be; you want to compress it into one bar and don't see how that's actually more complicated? You've changed nothing save for the fact you're balling the management into one tool, meaning its more difficult to balance and design. You're asking for nuance in the state of Vizards, but rejecting an idea that has shown that.

Speed while masked is clearly shown in at least SEVEN fights, strength while masked, ditto, and so on. It is indeed vague what impact it has on Kidou. Ichigo goes from getting hit, and being unable to hit Byak, to easily out pacing his footwork and doing hard damage to him. Yammi vs Ichigo, ditto. Grimmjaw vs Ichigo, ditto. Ichigo vs the Vizards, ditto. Turn back, ditto. Ulq vs Ichigo, ditto. Wonderwiess vs that Captain, ditto. Seems pretty consistent to me. But for the sake of the RP, I had already said just one, so I suppose that's moot.

As for questions about masking, all already have been answered, leading me to reiterate paragraph two.

As for Garganta, I can dig it in terms of balance and story.

Now, give and take? Didn't I gut their: unique feat slot, extra kai slot, and throw on a penalty already? Seriously.